tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post3513566620604946572..comments2023-10-26T00:08:26.205+01:00Comments on The Boiling Frog: Are UKIP The New Judas Goats?TheBoilingFroghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comBlogger87125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-34169649451634579192014-02-21T13:41:02.884+00:002014-02-21T13:41:02.884+00:00forget UKIP we must abandon the LibLabCon and Poli...forget UKIP we must abandon the LibLabCon and Political Parties in general to replace with Independent Candidates free of Party Control immediate withdrawal from both EU&ECHR www.thisisourland.info Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-20594253312887105362014-02-16T01:06:38.166+00:002014-02-16T01:06:38.166+00:00I disagree Nailer...
If Farage is guilty of the t...I disagree Nailer...<br /><br />If Farage is guilty of the things that N Warry says... Then what he says and the way he is saying it is merely an example of what he is complaining of... Negativity...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-34163798783894432122014-02-14T11:57:07.381+00:002014-02-14T11:57:07.381+00:00Perhaps I'm slow to understand here, but what ...Perhaps I'm slow to understand here, but what message are you referring to? The message that being in the EU is bad for Britain? If that's the case, I don't know why you say UKIP are ignoring it?<br /><br />PR is not a discipline I am very familiar with - my epxertise is more in the digital arena and PR is usually something I commission others to do - but I do know that a professionally run PR campaign should have a set of measurable objectives. The usual benchmark would be mentions in relevant media. How are you measuring the spread of the message? I'm guessing not by column inches devoted to discussion of our membership of the EU because whilst an increase in volume is good, it cannot be definitively attributed to your efforts and not those of other parties, say UKIP, for instance. Therefore, because if it cannot be attributed to you, that is not an adequate campaign metric so I'm intrigued to know how you measure your success?<br /><br />I am sympathetic to the idea that a movement as opposed to a political party is the best vehicle for bringing about change (though it would be brave to say it's the only vehicle and that political parties cannot work). But in my opinion, and I believe I have a right to express an opinion on this subject, for the movement to succeed it will need structure - the amorphous nature of a few political bloggers who often fall out with one another is definitely doomed to failure. The structure should include a memorable name (and sorry to say "The Harrogate Agenda" would not be on my list of contenders for it), a logo, a website, a number of spokespeople with expertise in numerous areas and a figurehead of considerable personal gravitas (and that immediately excludes Richard North - I'm not saying he doesn't have a considerable role to play, but I AM saying he would be a far worse figurehead than Mr. Farage is for UKIP).<br /><br />It should also have a clear set of objectives, and very clear strategies that can be disseminated by a widespread membership so that, for example, when asked the question "how do you propose to make ths hoped-for change?" everyone in the movement should have a clear answer. I think it's fair to say that no such movement exists yet?<br /><br />So, in the absence of such a movement, I still believe that UKIP are the only game in town. Flawed, ugly, rife with tensions for sure and not meeting all of my criteria, but it's probably the only potentially viable route open to Eurosceptics right now.Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-10226506719271346742014-02-14T07:47:01.225+00:002014-02-14T07:47:01.225+00:00The message is out there. It is spreading in spite...The message is out there. It is spreading in spite of the media's best efforts to stifle it and UKIP to ignore it. We need a coordinated EUsceptic, non party campaign that builds up awareness and support, then applies pressure that cannot be ignored by MPs, so a referendum can take place, similar to what happened in Norway. <br /><br />While you say UKIP is the only game in town, it will not achieve the goal because party politics will never achieve something of this kind. UKIP is already showing why by diluting its message and focusing its attention on electoral ambitions, rather than showing people how the issues that most frustrate them are controlled by the EU and cannot be addressed unless Britain is at least run by the British.<br />Autonomous Mindhttp://autonomousmind.wordpress.com/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-69497579742881276902014-02-14T07:35:42.514+00:002014-02-14T07:35:42.514+00:00You're not very good at holding the thread of ...You're not very good at holding the thread of an argument together are you? You delude yourself into seeing what you want to see. For example, in your last response you tell me I flatter myself if I feel that I had insulted you.<br /><br />But in the last response but one, you say my "attack" *WAS* insulting.<br /><br />And then you bring out your own favourite insult - to declaim my intellectual grasp. Oh yes, here we go again - RIchard North backed into a corner when confronted by his own brand of "passive aggression" and he launches the usual broadside: if you don't agree with me, you're too thick to see the logic.<br /><br />I'd hate to be you - life must be a constant source of frustration and disappointment.<br /><br /><br />Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-69288461980947564732014-02-14T07:32:33.838+00:002014-02-14T07:32:33.838+00:00This comment has been removed by the author.Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-9023475691396317312014-02-14T00:06:14.921+00:002014-02-14T00:06:14.921+00:00My colleague always cautions me not to fight with ...My colleague always cautions me not to fight with the chimney sweep, and for obvious reasons. But, for the marginal entertainment that you have afforded me, as light relief at the end of a gruelling research project, it is perhaps worth the cost of a little extra laundry.<br /><br />But you flatter yourself if you think your lightweight meanderings could even get close to insulting me. You do not have the skill, or the intellectual grasp. <br /><br />Keep to your delusions, though. Your impenetrable sense of rectitude will provide you with a temporary barrier against the hard reality that you are supporting a losing creed that is lining itself up to fail.<br /><br />Enjoy it while it lasts.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-90932624979479895722014-02-13T21:54:40.198+00:002014-02-13T21:54:40.198+00:00Many points well made.
And I have just one questi...Many points well made.<br /><br />And I have just one question in return: if you have the expertise to deliver the message and back it with integrity and research that stands up to intense scrutiny, why aren't you guys getting the message out there? What are your plans for bringing about, in a reasonable time frame, an exit from the EU?<br /><br />I'm in my late forties and I would prefer to see restoration of our sovereignty before I die.Right now, despite the obvious failings of Farage et al, they are the only game in town.Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-88183653442621985522014-02-13T21:48:32.669+00:002014-02-13T21:48:32.669+00:00For an academic with an avowed expertise in resear...For an academic with an avowed expertise in research, you seem to have formed some wildly inaccurate opinions.<br /><br />I did not and do not claim to have all, any or even some of the answers. I did not say that you are wrong.<br /><br />What I did say, and repeat, is that (to adopt your phrase), passive aggression is a complete non-starter as an engagement mechanism.<br /><br />I do not remember what your argument with tallbloke was about but I do recall vividly you expressing that you and only someone with your years of experience of whatever (in other words, only you) are sufficiently informed to have an opinion and everybody else is a waste of space.<br /><br />If you feel that I insult you by holding a mirror to your comments then so be it - but my opinion of you has been built over many years reading your blog and the fact you never miss an opportunity to demonstrate that passive aggression on anybody who has the termerity to suggest they have an alternative opinion.<br /><br />If you find it personal and insulting, then good. Read what you say about other people - you are personal and so insulting so often that you thoroughly deserve to be made to feel the way you no doubt have made many other people feel.<br /><br />You claim disinterest in UKIP - if they are the irrelevance you claim, then I would suggest that the content of your blog very clearly says something entirely different.<br /><br />You have 5000 people read your blog everyday. I would suggest they're the same 5000 everyday - so you've made a big impression on the National consciousness in your years of blogging and researching and writing books.<br /><br />If UKIP poll 15% of the votes at the next election, how many times bigger is the number they have engaged with? God, how that must piss you off.<br /><br />And for the record, I am not a UKIP cultist. I am an inactive member. I see their faults, but I also see yours, which you clearly do not.<br /><br />BTW, I'm not offended - I expected worse from you and was prepared for it, though it does seem that I've annoyed you.Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-50010315198310776082014-02-13T16:38:43.239+00:002014-02-13T16:38:43.239+00:00Tony, a couple of things. For all this supposed e...Tony, a couple of things. For all this supposed expertise in reaching out and engaging people, UKIP is still failing to break 13% on average nationally, despite a significantly higher percentage of voters saying they want to leave the EU. For a charismatic, Nigel Farage has a staggering track record of turning people off and making them want to walk away once they get to know him, something a huge number of former UKIP officials and members will attest to.<br /><br />The thing you don't seem to have grasped is that any politician can spin a line, they long have and they frequently continue to do so. But more so than ever before, politicians are being challenged to show what they say is more than a soundbite. You need to have people who understand the detail and Nigel, by self admission, doesn't. Which is why after sounding off, there is nothing to back up his media assault. Polls how shown that compared to last year, voters increasingly don't trust Farage and I would argue this is exactly why. There's no beef inside the packaging. <br /><br />It also demonstrates the immaturity and amateur nature of UKIP if party sources are telling you that the detail dug up by our blogs is impractical and self defeating. It seems to have escaped your attention that unlike UKIP we are not campaigning for votes as a political party. We understand very well how to present 10 word arguments, develop soundbites, capture and retain public attention using a platform, because several of us have done just that in our professional lives. But at this time we don't have to. The difference is, if we did have to we could back claims with hard evidence under scrutiny. It pays to know your subject before sounding off in the public space. That too many of UKIP's senior members treat not doing so as a badge of honour should tell you a great deal.<br /><br />That these UKIP party folk you refer to cannot think even that deeply or are so blinkered as to not recognise the difference between political campaigning and blogging, shows UKIP is constrained by its leadership's own limitations. I guess it is comforting to me that those disagreeing with me are self evidently poor performers.<br /><br />Over the last year UKIP has had a mountain of opportunity to develop messages and drip them into public discourse. They have only succeeded in pushing an anti-immigration agenda that appeals to the lowest common denominator and is actually self defeating and full of holes. No wonder UKIP's polling numbers since last May are down and Farage is less appealing than he was when people knew him less.Autonomous Mindhttp://autonomousmind.wordpress.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-21886433394930852712014-02-13T13:52:43.525+00:002014-02-13T13:52:43.525+00:00@Tony Leatham I think you need to familiarise you...@Tony Leatham I think you need to familiarise yourself with the concept of passive aggression, and acknowledge that the aggression displayed differs more in style than substance. I simply prefer to be more open and above board in my approach.<br /><br />Typically, you display exactly the same characteristics of which you accuse me - the assumption that you (and those whom you support) are right, and I am wrong. Thus, you position Tallbloke in the right, and myself in the wrong, with the clear implication that I was seeking to impose my views on the debate, rather than Tallbloke seeking to do just that.<br /><br />As your "argument" progresses, though, it becomes apparent that it it is one long ad hominem, without in any way addressing any real issues, complaining of my attitude and demonstrating your very obvious resentment of it.<br /><br />With that, straw men come in legions, to make up a fantasy argument, long departed from any semblance of the reality that I could recognise.<br /><br />Then, in a classic deployment of passive aggression, you seek to insulate yourself from your own impertinence - in making assessments of my character which are not only wrong, but frankly insulting - by predicting a "nasty, unpleasant, vicious reply".<br /><br />Clearly, in an issue -free attack on me, which is personal, insulting, and full of innuendo and false assumptions, the irony of your own statement obviously escapes you.<br /><br />But what also escapes you is that I have long ceased caring what the UKIP cultists think - insofar as they can think - or say. My concern is for the majority who would agree that we should leave the EU and who are not and will never become UKIP supporters.<br /><br />Those are amongst the 5-6000 people who are attracted to my blog every day, to what I write as an individual without the benefit of a political party platform or media support. <br /><br />How many people do you attract on your blog, Mr Leatham?<br /><br />Please do feel free to be offended - this is evidently something you are quite good at, as well as being spectacularly offensive in your own right.<br /><br />Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-10834944673598801612014-02-13T08:26:02.387+00:002014-02-13T08:26:02.387+00:00"Had you even a limited understanding of the ...<i>"Had you even a limited understanding of the dynamics of political change, you would appreciate that this was a more productive use of resource, and would not be indulging in facile challenges that would have use driving up the same cul de sac in which UKIP is currently parked."</i><br /><br />You are way off the mark... Your resort to verbal abuse proves my argument.<br /><br />Yuk.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-48062170269398092072014-02-13T07:46:06.056+00:002014-02-13T07:46:06.056+00:00You reveal a number of things about yourself in th...You reveal a number of things about yourself in this reply.<br /><br />First off, it's become clear to me, and I think others, that for you, the only way to achieve Brexit is your way. You will not countenance debate (remember that unedifying little spat you had with tallbloke a while back?) and you make it clear you feel that you and only you are equipped to decide upon a course of action. You shut down discussion at every turn with a thoroughly disagreeable attitude and approach.<br /><br />What you don't realise (and this is because in my opinion, you lack any form of social skills and don't even recognise the need for them) is that your pugnacious, take no prisoners, I'm-the-only-one-that-counts attitude completely alienates you. Why the hell SHOULD UKIP or anybody for that matter listen to you? You do not have a right to force your opinions on anyone, but you don't understand that do you? You just blame them for not rolling over and proclaiming you the second coming and it seems to me that it clearly rankles you that Mr. Farage is popular and you, frankly, are not. You do not have the first idea how to begin persuading people of the viability of your arguments without resorting to the kind of vicious, unpleasant debate killing rhetoric you have used over a period of years on anybody you consider is not kowtowing to you.<br /><br />And you can't even see that despite the undoubted validity of what you say, the message in and of itself is not enough - people have to be persuaded not brow beaten.<br /><br />I'd love to see this "wider constituency" you proclaim - exactly how many turned up at your last public meeting?<br /><br />You, sir, are a lost cause. You do more harm than good with the force of your personality, and inability to understand people.<br /><br />Cue nasty, unpleasant, vicious reply.......<br /><br />Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-58424713419301668792014-02-12T22:31:15.302+00:002014-02-12T22:31:15.302+00:00@Nailer,
Unless it had a tight local focus to ove...@Nailer,<br /><br />Unless it had a tight local focus to overcome FPTP, forget it. A big problem with UKIP is that they have distributed support. How many % of the poll before they start to get seats? Which seats do they threaten?<br /><br />It's no accident that UKIP's the way it is with people highly motivated to get out of the EU, not seeing eye to eye with it. There isn't the discipline of gaining seats in Westminster to hold it together; there's the dubious prospect of MEPs.<br /><br />Looking into the Somerset Levels debacle, it would appear that the RSPB has been a more effective political force than UKIP, and that's without most of its members realising it, or presenting itself for election. <br /><br />Creepy Eh?<br /><br /><br /><br />cosmicnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-68036976239162554012014-02-12T21:13:33.586+00:002014-02-12T21:13:33.586+00:00@right writes
Well, hardly. He is giving opinions...@right writes<br /><br />Well, hardly. He is giving opinions - articulately - which you failed to counter, and which many share and recognise. It was and still is the FFC - Farage Fan Club, with absolutely no political footprint, credibility, recognition or even core beliefs. <br /><br />If that's the best you can do.....we're screwed. Nailernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-35462432189884595272014-02-12T21:09:34.867+00:002014-02-12T21:09:34.867+00:00Yes, me as well.
There is a small army of us, an...Yes, me as well. <br /><br />There is a small army of us, and could easily and credibly form our own party.<br /><br />With all the hoo-hah in the press recently about 2010 policies being "drivel", the Defence policy was co-written by 2 retired senior officers, a Rear Admiral and a Major General. <br /><br />An ex-member, and I see no-one to vote for, a once-decent party packed to the rafter with BNP failures, and ignorant homophobes, racists and bigots. <br />Nailernoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-15568399774017700482014-02-12T18:50:35.902+00:002014-02-12T18:50:35.902+00:00This guy is listening Richard...
http://trolololo...This guy is listening Richard...<br /><br />http://trololololololololololo.com<br /><br />Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-85424476540904610602014-02-12T18:46:35.201+00:002014-02-12T18:46:35.201+00:00Oh dear...Oh dear...Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-74044567580203721772014-02-12T17:13:56.628+00:002014-02-12T17:13:56.628+00:00We would not waste our time and efforts in such an...We would not waste our time and efforts in such an exercise of narrow tribalism ... as well you know. Those that partake in the electoral process are the guardians of the status quo, which is why we have chosen the route of creating a political movement.<br /><br />Had you even a limited understanding of the dynamics of political change, you would appreciate that this was a more productive use of resource, and would not be indulging in facile challenges that would have use driving up the same cul de sac in which UKIP is currently parked.<br /><br />Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-84804697659086448392014-02-12T17:04:26.710+00:002014-02-12T17:04:26.710+00:00@Tony Leatham Insofar as our voices are "str...@Tony Leatham Insofar as our voices are "strident", it is because they were completely ignored by UKIP, even when they were expressed internally. UKIP routinely ignores all criticisms, from whatever source, and regardless of how it is couched. Therefore, the only way to talk to the party is with a megaphone.<br /><br />However, such of our writing as is about UKIP is not necessarily directed at the deaf ears of UKIP cultists but to our own audiences, of which many disagree with the assumption that UKIP has a God-given right to represent the anti-EU movement.<br /><br />UKIP members are free to listen into a debate which is much wider than their narrow preoccupations, but if they choose to stick their heads in the (tribal) sands, that is their loss, not ours. We have a wider constituency that is actually interested in getting out of the EU, rather than winning party brownie points.. Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-69399014555316740412014-02-12T13:55:15.944+00:002014-02-12T13:55:15.944+00:00Sigh. Attitudes like this will *NEVER* advance the...Sigh. Attitudes like this will *NEVER* advance the cause. It would be marvellous if your view of what an effective leader is had any chance of ever leading anything. But in the early years of the 21st Century, it takes a different skill set to engage the public. And until the Harromates get their way (which will be long after I'm dead), then public support is necessary.<br /><br />Just because you believe this is a God given opporutnity does not mean everybody must also feel that way.<br /><br />If I'm honest, I tend to agree with you - that it *IS* a good opportunity to highlight the failings of the EU. But I'm not trying to have this debate in the full glare of publicity day in and day out whilst trying to plan campaigns and communications out beyond the next election and until I am, I don't feel qualified to express an opinion with your certainty.<br /><br />You must remember that the strident voices of RN, WfW, AM etc. are completely ignored by UKIP precisely because they are strident, impractical and self-defeating - and I know this for a certainty because I asked a spefic question of people in the party who know<br />Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-25161760614186449142014-02-12T13:28:27.798+00:002014-02-12T13:28:27.798+00:00@Tony Leatham Just how many opportunities need to...@Tony Leatham Just how many opportunities need to go begging before you too will question Farage’s judgement. The Floods of the Summerset levels has been a god given opportunity to drag the whole rotten political establishment through the mud. It must be taken. It’s a far better subject than immigration which is always divisive. The flooding makes the EU, the greens, so called environmentalists all look foolish. Chris Smith has been allowed to get away with blaming the treasury for his department vandalism. Maybe the trouble is no one in UKIP has had to work for this golden opportunity so you just don’t recognise it for what it is. Another leadership failure.<br /><br />I have to say its you guys that are living in the fool’s paradise. All Farage has to say to avoid the boring chat is go to our website to check the details…….but oh hold on…..UKIP’s web site is a detail free zone.<br /><br />At this very point in our history this country needs leaders who are hot on detail. We don’t need plonkers such as Cameron, millipede and the clog head. No we those who want to know the detail, who are able to trip up the press with some detail and someone who like the rest of us has an in built scepticism of experts. Jack the Lad down the pub is only goes so far, and to my mind is being over done.<br />PeterMGhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01212008728231863115noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-72484612878944358532014-02-12T10:34:24.118+00:002014-02-12T10:34:24.118+00:00The problem is that the charismatic types know how...The problem is that the charismatic types know how to engage people as they have good interpersonal skills.<br /><br />The likes of RN (see his reply to me below for an example) are "village idiots" in that realm, and no doubt don't even recognise their disability in this area and the fact that without redressing it, they are doomed to be unheard by the majority essential to bring about their intended outcome.Tony Leathamhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01989534785992451037noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-63164109672556044062014-02-12T10:09:37.944+00:002014-02-12T10:09:37.944+00:00"...on the other we have for want of a better...<i>"...on the other we have for want of a better collective noun the Harromates."</i><br /><br />Yes Tony, I thought that was one of my better warblings...<br /><br />I think you made some very good points, but the most important point is that the "Harromates" are not prepared to put up or shut up...<br /><br />I just took my life in my hands and ventured onto Richard's domain, and there he is describing Nigel as the "village idiot".<br /><br />On the one hand his research is as you say, comprehensive and potentially useful, but on the other hand his shrill rantings become ever more crass.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-39661310250145270692014-02-12T09:52:21.378+00:002014-02-12T09:52:21.378+00:00Well then Richard... Better get a move on...
Perh...Well then Richard... Better get a move on...<br /><br />Perhaps you should put 600 of your finest and ever so perfect supporters, up for election on the Harrogate ticket...<br /><br />We can measure your performance as the leader of a political movement against the success or failure of UKIP at the next general election... Notably the first general election that UKIP will be entering with Farage as leader.<br /><br />I wish you the best, and I hope you do well.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com