tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post5239067927420606675..comments2023-10-26T00:08:26.205+01:00Comments on The Boiling Frog: A State SecretTheBoilingFroghttp://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comBlogger46125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-42456456628242805662013-09-25T14:01:11.469+01:002013-09-25T14:01:11.469+01:00I don't speak for UKIP, but...
As (for instan...I don't speak for UKIP, but...<br /><br />As (for instance) article 50 didn't exist until the lisbon treated was created, it would be a stupid waste of time working out all the precise details and then trying to keep them current.<br /><br />It is enough to know that there are options. Which specific one is taken can be decided at the time when all current information is known.<br /><br />It would be in no ones interest to leave any aspect of our exit waving in the wind after our exit, so there will be more than enough people working on every aspect to sort it all out.Bloggerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10605617930455114746noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-39198262189221098512013-08-23T15:12:12.389+01:002013-08-23T15:12:12.389+01:00If your interpretation is correct then I am reliev...If your interpretation is correct then I am relieved. I hope you are right as I presumed the man in Zurich to be a lawyer.Vanessanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-57544114373213597932013-08-22T23:18:44.337+01:002013-08-22T23:18:44.337+01:00There's nothing there that contradicts my answ...There's nothing there that contradicts my answer. The footnote relates to the death penalty and/or executions in specific situations. These are rights all countries, including the UK, already have in the situations I outlined above.TheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-854640817120000352013-08-22T22:59:21.267+01:002013-08-22T22:59:21.267+01:00If you don't believe me then have a look at th...If you don't believe me then have a look at this and then tell me it does not reintroduce it. <br />http://www.currentconcerns.ch/index.php?id=866Vanessanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-59795704444830884102013-08-22T08:40:52.801+01:002013-08-22T08:40:52.801+01:00A Baxter misunderstands the term Northist...
It i...A Baxter misunderstands the term Northist...<br /><br />It is really an allusion to the Northian concept that UKIP and Farage is a cult, and that supporters are feeble minded acolytes.<br /><br />The term Northist is meant to convey the same sentiment about you and your fellow travellers.<br /><br />As to which "cult" achieves more, only time will tell.<br /><br />Certainly though, rudeness is only doled out to those that deal first.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-46218845226175380432013-08-20T11:12:58.147+01:002013-08-20T11:12:58.147+01:00Thanks Will Rees, informative commentsThanks Will Rees, informative commentsTheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-79973818335806825312013-08-20T09:35:09.144+01:002013-08-20T09:35:09.144+01:00Thanks and well said Andy. Certainly it's labe...Thanks and well said Andy. Certainly it's labeling allowing me to be pigeonholed then marginalised rather than addressing the inconvenience of the core points.TheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-47327176570851441342013-08-20T09:18:06.104+01:002013-08-20T09:18:06.104+01:00@Vanessa The Lisbon Treaty doesn't reintroduce...@Vanessa The Lisbon Treaty doesn't reintroduce the death penalty, what it does is provide exemptions to the ban.<br /><br />There's a blanket ban on the death penalty and executions via Protocol 13 and Article 2(2) of the European Union Charter of Fundamental Rights<br /><br />http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-07-850_en.htm?locale=en<br /><br />What the Lisbon "footnote" allows is exemptions in case of war, riots and public order situations.<br /><br />Wars are obvious as soldiers would be unable to do their job properly if they can't "execute" people. Certain public order situations also require lethal force for example a Police sniper killing a hostage taker or the Iranian embassy siege. These rights are enjoyed by the vast majority of countries across the world.<br /><br />It's worth bearing in mind that Lisbon was deliberately written to be complicated which leads to misunderstandings, this has affected other aspects of the Treaty such as Article 50, Article 47 and the wholesale changes to QMV in November 2014.<br /><br />In truth most of the clauses turn out to be far less sinister than is imagined.TheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-17449312886256961392013-08-19T23:30:06.038+01:002013-08-19T23:30:06.038+01:00That is not sensible - it is like saying Cancer ch...That is not sensible - it is like saying Cancer charities do not want to find a cure because all their money would stop !<br /><br />I think UKIP would enjoy unravelling all the directives once Britain left the EU and negotiating all the terms in our best interest. I am not sure whether there is a true patriotic government in the other 3 parties who would do this - they are so ignorant that they would let the EU dictate their terms.<br /><br />For instance, did anyone know that the death penalty is reintroduced in the Lisbon Treaty ? Most do not.Vanessanoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-33898652189470505972013-08-19T23:11:35.306+01:002013-08-19T23:11:35.306+01:00Closed minds are sadly not worth the effort of arg...Closed minds are sadly not worth the effort of arguing although I salute your efforts my slowly cooking amphibian, <br /><br />for one cannot reason out of an opinion one who was not reasoned into it in the first place...<br /><br />all the criticisms of UKIP here, on AM and EUref are totally valid and worthy of intelligent reasoned answers, but alas none this way come.....<br /><br />Everything in the political arena is worthy of critique for politics is local and takes an interest in everyone whether we like it or not.<br /><br />being accused of being a "Northist" my friend (oh how that made me chuckle) for it illustrates so deliciously the vacuous empty intellect of those who cannot reason or argue intelligently and resort to either/or/and profanity, violence or 'labelling' have already lost the argument.<br /><br />"Northist" = the New "Racist" <br /><br />hahaha.....what next I wonder; a complaint to the police for being "Northist" under the equality act...hahaha you 'labellers' really are a joke.... <br /><br />Andy Baxterhttp://harrogatedeclaration.org/noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-18645833778946405882013-08-19T21:41:49.255+01:002013-08-19T21:41:49.255+01:00Yep, UKIP are the same, just what did you expect m...Yep, UKIP are the same, just what did you expect me to say??? ..... EXCEPT they advocate leaving the EU, something NONE of the other parties subscribe to.<br />If the Conservatives were a TRUE anti-EU party I'd vote for them too. Likewise Labour or (God forgive me) Lib Dem. BUT there currently IS no alternative is there?<br />When (I say 'when' with genuine hope) THA comes to fruition I will be backing it with all my heart regardless of who is currently sat in Parliament. Until then......Davenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-24789946022112058092013-08-19T17:21:31.720+01:002013-08-19T17:21:31.720+01:00Strange days indeed. We live during a time in hist...Strange days indeed. We live during a time in history where 90+ per cent of the general public has no idea where our laws come from. Are we happy with that? I'm not. I suspect that even the craven vegetables in Westminster are among that 90%: It is that bad. The original "Bolshevism redux" plans are failing temporarily thanks to the greed (neoliberalism/progressive) induced crisis, so we have a chance to stop our decline.<br /><br />IKIP? Who are they? I don't know. Is the partys' lack of advancement solely the result of demagoguery? or something else. The founders were linked to the LSE, an institution that I link to the Fabian Society. I think perhaps I view UKIP as a depository, a safe place to keep political dissent re the soviet EU under control. This is a grown up issue. It requires that intelligent steps be taken to recapture our power. If that fails we have violence: Something our glorious Marxist leaders drool at the thought of. Victory for either side is likely to pyrrhic, if violence, however is justified is used.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-60246298677416577752013-08-19T14:41:48.920+01:002013-08-19T14:41:48.920+01:00If anyone is working out that cap,might also be wo...If anyone is working out that cap,might also be worth finding out how much would be needed to be spent on the likes of Harwich so that more non EU exports could be sent from there rather than through Rotterdam (and thus included in the 50% trade figures). <br /><br />Its only by widely disseminating info like this that will force are professionally paid advocates be they politicians or media opinion formers to raise their game.Will Reeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00624267871031969465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-31183020815143180922013-08-19T14:35:22.834+01:002013-08-19T14:35:22.834+01:00Airspace stuff is a bit of a red herring, akin to ...Airspace stuff is a bit of a red herring, akin to keeping the peace in Europe for 50 years as soon as they got themselves an army. ICAO Chicago Convention applies. The promotion of airspace got added to the boasts because EU got itself recognised as a state. Must have- ICAO is a UN body and Article 1 of the Chicago Convention. ICAO also sets the specs for passports. Still at aleast EASA is more transparent than JAA pulling strings method that existed before it. This is an area I actually now some stuff about. <br /><br /><br />Know less about the WTO, but was under the impression it sets limits for trade barriers between member countries. If so then the max cap EU could place (and I assume it would to discourage les autres) is calculable. Will Reeshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00624267871031969465noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-26040796102903024682013-08-19T13:16:29.434+01:002013-08-19T13:16:29.434+01:00If only it was as easy as that...precisely because...If only it was as easy as that...precisely because the EU governs most things means getting out is going to be very difficult - like getting rid of Japanese Knotweed.<br /><br />What about trade, permission to enter EU airspace, landing slots, telephony and postal services to the EU - the list is endless. Simply just withholding our subs doesn't mean exit.TheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-37263070752280099362013-08-19T13:15:54.207+01:002013-08-19T13:15:54.207+01:00If that happens, and it is a coherent policy, than...If that happens, and it is a coherent policy, than it will have my support.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-88013535555277052782013-08-19T13:07:36.341+01:002013-08-19T13:07:36.341+01:00We leave the same way we leave any club. We stop p...We leave the same way we leave any club. We stop paying the subs the let them work it out.non-sequitur.co.ukhttp://non-sequitur.co.uknoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-73262494411306545952013-08-19T12:57:30.324+01:002013-08-19T12:57:30.324+01:00I think UKIP are formulating a new approach to lea...I think UKIP are formulating a new approach to leaving the EU Empire . We all agree they need to , especially as a referendum may happen . I am hopeful that there will be a new policy announced soon involving article 50 of the Lisbon Con Treaty .<br /> Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-37000280015521721162013-08-19T11:53:42.658+01:002013-08-19T11:53:42.658+01:00It may be easy to leave ... it is also easy to com...It may be easy to leave ... it is also easy to commit suicide. What is not easy is leaving in such a manner that we preserve trade links and continue with a co-operative association with the remainder of the EU.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-74972799959618122662013-08-19T11:50:12.401+01:002013-08-19T11:50:12.401+01:00Mr Right Writes: I still have no idea who you are ...Mr Right Writes: I still have no idea who you are ... there are over 400 forum members, But, if this is an example of your debating style ...<br /><br />"Sitting on the sidelines sniping at everything and everyone that disagrees with me, is not a sensible approach, being a part, however insignificant of the general mass of opposition is the best place to be, and attempting to shoot it down at every opportunity is an example of the bitterness of a scorned woman."<br /><br />... then it is unsurprising that you were being "regularly bashed". <br /><br />Actually, though, you were "bashed" on the Booker Column, where you offered the same slur that you are repeating now ... the discussion also being posted on the forum ...<br /><br />http://www.eureferendum.com/forum/yaf_postsm17714_Booker--all-the-news-that-s-not-fit-to-print.aspx#post17714<br /><br />You were answered on the column, but that does not stop you coming back with exactly the same slur, unaltered. You obviously intended to cause offence, and you are still doing it, but now you are positioning yourself as the "victim". This is not fair dealing. It is not straight dealing.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-19982439777850591902013-08-19T11:23:32.812+01:002013-08-19T11:23:32.812+01:00I am sorry if I gave that impression... It wasn...I am sorry if I gave that impression... It wasn't an accusation, more of an observation, however cack-handed.<br /><br />But here is the thing, UKIP was in the very early days (Sked) an anti-EU group... (The anti-common market league?), there was a very early argument that resulted in some people leaving, but many more people joining. <br /><br />Should UKIP contest seats at all elections including for the EP, or should it make a stand and not "recognise" the EU? <br /><br />The day that it started contesting all elections was the day that it ceased to be an anti-EU pressure group, and become a pro-UK, anti establishment thorn in the side of the LibLabCON. <br /><br />The aim of UKIP is not to get the UK to withdraw from the EU and then to fold and for its people to go back to being metal traders, salesmen and bank clerks... <br /><br />The aim is to change the balance of power in Westminster away from the establishment/communitarian/communist (keep the people down at all costs) model, and establish a modern independent democracy, with much more say for localism and direct democracy.<br /><br />If you are a member you will know that already. You will know that despite the occasional contradiction, it is the most liberal of the parties on almost every issue, even though it has to placate some of the older members sometimes.<br /><br />If I cause any offence to your or Richard's sensibilities, it is entirely due to the way that I was regularly treated on the EUReferendum website, the second that I raised a question about something that Richard wrote... Eventually I got fed up with being regularly bashed, and I retired to "the margins" :)Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-50688745548783859022013-08-19T11:09:46.075+01:002013-08-19T11:09:46.075+01:00Mr Right Write: You simply can't help yourself...Mr Right Write: You simply can't help yourself, can you? It can't be Harrogate. It has to be "Harrowgate". Everything about you is one long sneer. And then you complain about my attitude? I suggest you have a good, long, hard look in the mirror.<br /><br />As to me knowing who you are, don't you think you are being a little disingenuous. "Right Writes" is not registered on my forum database and if you were at Harrogate, you did not register as Mr Right Writes. The whole point of a psuedonym or screen name is that it hides the identity of the writer.<br /><br />And I am sorry you "got fed up with your attitude to anyone that either you disagree with, or that disagrees with you", although I have to say that you are indeed a tender flower if you let that upset you. <br /><br />For sure, I have a robust debating style, and a sharp wit, but the issues are bigger than Richard North. If you can't get past that, and have to resort to your malevolent stream of insults, then you are a very small man.<br /><br />It strikes me though that you are not being entirely honest with me or yourself. As a UKIP supporter, you may well have been dismayed by the anti-UKIP tone at Harrogate. This was not intended and it was as much to my surprise as anyone's that the meeting had a very high proportion of ex-UKIP members, and there was some considerable hostility to UKIP.<br /><br />I am not sure, therefore, that you are not simply reflecting your support for UKIP, and reacting to my attacks on UKIP. But then, that is one of the very reasons why I am so critical of UKIP. <br /><br />From being a political party, it is developing the characteristics of a cult, increasingly intolerant of criticism and aggressively hostile to those who dare offer the slightest adverse observations.<br /><br />The sharpness and the hostility of your personal attacks are not normal. You really do need to look at yourself and ask yourslef where you are going with this.<br /><br />Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-4888458120050334172013-08-19T10:55:28.659+01:002013-08-19T10:55:28.659+01:00"Sorry, a bit strong, but you do seem to be j..."Sorry, a bit strong, but you do seem to be jumping into bed with the oh so bitter Dr. North..."<br /><br />You apologise then effectively accuse me of the same thing again in the same sentence.<br /><br />What is revealing is all I did was write a mild observation that it is odd that UKIP - whose specialty is supposed to be EU exit - does not have a plan. Or rather it sort of does but wants to keep it secret. It's an issue I have raised as a UKIP member on separate occasions internally to sympathetic ears. And for that observation I get called a Northist.<br /><br />UKIP has had years to produce one and has failed to do so with no indication of one in the future. <br /><br />It's akin to the Green party claiming they're an environmental party but don't reveal any details of eco-type measures they support. A quick perusal of their website however shows in fact they do. Perhaps that's why they have 1 MP more than UKIP on a quarter of the vote.<br /><br />Anyway one thing I don't do is uncritical adulation, either of Richard North or UKIP or indeed anyone else. I call it as I see it. And if that upsets certain UKIP supports who see nothing wrong with their messiah, and get rather touchy in his defence, then so be it.TheBoilingFroghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00791961503315586243noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-15919682249720995452013-08-19T10:51:59.899+01:002013-08-19T10:51:59.899+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Richardhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02561483930556493363noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6693950082152211516.post-52917417951705502662013-08-19T10:50:41.277+01:002013-08-19T10:50:41.277+01:00BTW: the avatar and name does not mean "right...BTW: the avatar and name does not mean "right" in the right/wrong sense of the word... it means right, as in liberal.... writes means that a liberal minded bloke is writing what follows. Not turning left.<br /><br />I was always of the view that the smaller and nastier that one perceives the world to be, the stupider one is becoming. And the bigger and funnier that the world is perceived, the more intelligent one is becoming. <br /><br />I am not so sure about the second part... perhaps more knowledgable... I am not sure that I agree wholly with Locke's view of nature vs. nurture.<br /><br />I don't mean you any ill will Richard, although that does not seem to be a view that is reciprocated, I used to be extremely polite in my criticism, but replies like the one I have just benefitted from were all that I got back, so I try to doasiwouldbedoneby.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.com